The Real George Wythe

The picture is a drawing of Monticello, which was ...

2012-01-27T21:04:30.016-08:00

The picture is a drawing of Monticello, which was built by George Wythe's premiere student, Thomas Jefferson. I have a degree from GWC (I attended in 1992-95). It was a very different type of education, but just as valuable to me as a "normal" college education would have been. I was the voice you heard on the phone when you called the school during those years.

In 1993 the school moved from Duck Creek, where it should have never been in the first place, to the office building shown in the first picture. First we had on unit upstairs and 2 downstairs, but shortly after moving in we swapped the upstairs unit for the last downstairs unit. It was an OFFICE BUILDING not a strip mall and we have the full basement.

I never lied about what kind of facility we had and every student we had at the time had been to the school before they enrolled. I also never hid my identity.

My name is Tom Mathias and I am proud to have been a George Wythe student. I also thoroughly enjoyed their simulations. I have not been there in a long time and I thought they had discontinued those, which made me sad. I am happy to read on your site that the simulations continue.

It appears that you spend much time on analyzing s...

2011-11-07T14:15:30.828-08:00

It appears that you spend much time on analyzing something of which you know nothing and you are so stuck on the conveyor belt, you have troubles grasping that a piece of paper from a college means very little. You have obviously never met either man, nor do you understand the concept that anyone can get a degree (and the Good Lord knows I graduated with many idiots who managed to pass tests). Until you meet them and understand their education level, you should really keep your day job and hope there will be enough leaders to pull us out of this pathetic economy so you can continue to be the grunt while the rest pull ahead to entrepeneurship and leadership. Come out of the bitter barn and play in the hay! Or, rather, study. I think your education may be lacking.

Seems to me, that you spend much time on analyzing...

2011-11-07T14:13:48.447-08:00

Seems to me, that you spend much time on analyzing something of which you know nothing and you are so stuck on the conveyor belt, you have troubles grasping that a piece of paper from a college means very little. You have obviously never met either man, nor do you understand the concept that anyone can get a degree (and the Good Lord knows I graduated with many idiots who managed to pass tests). Until you meet them and understand their education level, you should really keep your day job and hope there will be enough leaders to pull us out of this pathetic economy.

Nicely explained. It's indeed an art to stop n...

2011-05-05T09:51:42.393-07:00

Nicely explained. It's indeed an art to stop new visitors with your attractive writing style. Truly impressive and nice information. Thanks for sharing.
Life Experience Degree

TRGW, I hope you've been enjoying your readi...

2011-05-01T14:23:03.462-07:00

TRGW,

I hope you've been enjoying your reading of the 5000 Year Leap. Did you perchance receive my PM?

Thanks for keeping an eye on things. You might fin...

2011-04-16T16:40:43.922-07:00

Thanks for keeping an eye on things. You might find this video on Dr. Skousen interesting: http://j.mp/gysSpv

Angie

Thanks for all your admirable work on bringing the...

2011-03-16T07:38:56.321-07:00

Thanks for all your admirable work on bringing the truth to light! You have helped our family immeasurably! :)

I did a little reading on Carlos Asay. What an ama...

2011-02-21T03:47:31.870-08:00

I did a little reading on Carlos Asay. What an amazing story. I had no idea that the LDS church had missionaries in the middle east. It must have made him sad to see the increase rise of political violence where he served as a young man.

Are there any published books about his missionary experience?

I believe you've shown much integrity. Thanks ...

2011-02-20T22:28:53.209-08:00

I believe you've shown much integrity. Thanks for the blog. It's been illuminating. You definitely have made a difference for good concerning GW. I can say that you've helped me see the school for what it really is. Wish you the best in your future endeavors.

See ya, man. I think when you've made your cas...

2011-02-20T17:47:43.843-08:00

See ya, man. I think when you've made your case, you let your words stand, and you don't need to constantly be in it with every person who disagrees. Good on you. It's been fun.

Thanks R.C. and CrouchingOwl. I agree the site sho...

2011-02-20T15:51:38.269-08:00

Thanks R.C. and CrouchingOwl. I agree the site should remain up.

I think it hit me when I was trying to track down the Smailes dissertation. I realized I was getting too far into the details and didn't want to drag this woman--who is probably a nice old lady--into it.

If I eventually get a copy of her dissertation, I'll read it. I'm a fan of The Scarlet Letter. But I'll be surprised if it is dissertation caliber material. And I'll be blown away if there actually is a connection between it and constitutional law.

I'm convinced that the vast majority of those associated with George Wythe aren't malicious; they are simply ignorant. Sure, it's irritating that many "don't know what they don't know." Especially when they put themselves up, as Brooks does, as a learned person with "three earned degrees."

The fact that Brooks, DeMille, et al are no longer doing this "in my living room"--my relative is no longer involved with them--makes it much easier to ignore them going forward.

I wanted to share something I thought of yesterday. I remembered a time back in the 1990s, when Carlos E. Asay (then-president of the Salt Lake Temple) died. He had been a longtime general authority, close associate of President Hinckley, and had a personal impact on me a time or two.

President Hinckley said something at the funeral that struck me. I went back and found it in the Deseret News archives:

"President Hinckley said he did not realize Elder Asay had earned a doctorate until reading his obituary. 'He never boasted.'"

Ah. Accomplishment mixed with modesty. Such a rare attribute in our world. Entirely absent from my observations of the GW crowd.

Incredibly, President Hinckley appointed Elder Asay to many positions of responsibility, ultimately as steward of the flagship temple, without ever realizing he had a doctorate. Apparently his accumulated actions over time were enough for Pres. Hinckley. Earned degrees played no role.

That's a great example not only for the GW crowd, but for all of us.

Hopefully George Wythe morphs into some sort of force for good. It's possible. But getting there will take not only renouncing phony past degrees and publishing an honest history--it will also a large and ongoing dose of Socratic humility.

R.C., thank you for listing those changes. I'd like to think that we had some sort of an impact, starting with Stout's (hilarious) article, our Google group, and now this blog. I think we'd both agree it was all worth it if we steered just one student away from GW.

I do have to thank DeMille for getting me thinking more about reading classics. I had a great college professor who shared his personal list of "classics to read before you die" and DeMille reminded me of that list (it contained no Skousen btw).

It's funny, I do remember defending DeMille to someone back in 2002 or so, when they pointed out his attendance (correspondence?) at a bible college. At the time I didn't know much about TJEd, but had been by the school in Cedar City (back when it was under a dentist's office) and met a few people there. So I did give DeMille a chance, and did approach this subject in good faith. Nothing but the facts drove me to my conclusions.

I am still reading Skousen's 5000 Year Leap, but as I will no longer be doing this blog I take back my promise of a review.

Thanks for the fun everyone! I'll keep the blog up, and if anyone finds anything I've posted to be nonfactual or posted in bad faith, please point it out to me so I can remedy the problem.

All the best,

TRGW

- TJED...Gone from the curriculum - Oliver DeMille...

2011-02-20T14:22:29.622-08:00

- TJED...Gone from the curriculum
- Oliver DeMille...Gone
- Shanon Brooks...Gone
- Andrew Groft...Gone
- Unethical conflicts of interest in the form of private business profiting from non-profit GW...banned
- PhD program...discontinued
- Credit for life experience...discontinued
- Cleon Skousen readings...no more
- Monticello campus...no going to happen

Are there any other accomplishments? I'd say since this blog appeared, there have been many positive changes at GW. Thanks TRGW for all of the research and hard work. It has been for good.

This blog should remain online (at the very least) because we haven't seen a real history yet.

Thanks for the work you put into it. I really enj...

2011-02-19T00:07:32.417-08:00

Thanks for the work you put into it. I really enjoyed reading your posts.

Care to elaborate? How did you get to this point.

2011-02-18T08:15:44.628-08:00

Care to elaborate? How did you get to this point.

Thanks for finding that thought.

2011-02-16T16:48:52.496-08:00

Thanks for finding that thought.

Sorry about that. I definitely don't want her ...

2011-02-16T15:06:20.516-08:00

Sorry about that. I definitely don't want her spammed. That was supposed to be for TRGW's use.

Publius - remove last post - just use "esmail...

2011-02-16T12:57:51.571-08:00

Publius - remove last post - just use "esmailes at gw dot edu"

otherwise she will get spammed bad because there are programs that automatically search websites.

2011-02-16T12:09:51.590-08:00

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

publius, that's great. Can you call them back ...

2011-02-16T09:42:45.650-08:00

publius, that's great. Can you call them back and ask for a pdf copy of Smailes' dissertation? Or for her email address?

I just tried the phone number for GW, and it's...

2011-02-16T09:29:41.879-08:00

I just tried the phone number for GW, and it's working fine now.

It looks like the school's phone number -- (43...

2011-02-16T09:03:05.977-08:00

It looks like the school's phone number -- (435) 586-6570 -- is disconnected. I have also been unable to find contact information for Ms. Smailes.

If anyone knows Smailes or has access to the dissertation, please let me know how I can get a copy.

Frankly, I would be very interested in reading any of the dissertations approved by the school. It is unusual for these to be so hard to come by.

I know people have said they are available at the school for viewing. That's great if you are physically in Cedar City. But for those of us in different parts of the world, this is no help.

At a minimum, the school should have titles and abstracts available on its website. Better yet, have them added to ProQuest or something.

It's surprising that the school doesn't make this body of scholarship available to its far-flung discipleship in the continuing effort to build statesmen.

As it stands, Ms. Smailes' and The Stateman's description of the dissertation is all we have to go on.

R.C. - There may be something valuable there indee...

2011-02-15T23:38:40.080-08:00

R.C. - There may be something valuable there indeed.

At least that is what their thousands of satisfied students and contributors believe. And it’s completely OK if some people “just don’t get it.” No one ever said GW was for everyone. But those who it is for, definitely see the value there.

Bob, That is interesting that they have used com...

2011-02-15T17:23:32.717-08:00

Bob,

That is interesting that they have used committee members from other universities. You said that you don't like it when we assume that GW gives out degrees for nothing. If they hadn't given Ann Blake Tracy her PhD then I probably wouldn't have a beef. She said to the Deseret News that her insane book counted as her dissertation.

I really don't care about the Smailes' dissertation. It is telling to me that she is one of the few still around - DeMille, Brooks, and Groft are gone now, but she has been around for awhile.

I have heard some good things about Shane Schulthies from individuals who know him and I think if anyone can save that school from closure he can. I wish they would completely cancel all of their graduate programs since they will not be accredited for a long time.

IF GW can hold on to get accreditation, then I will be interested to see what Schulthies can do with it.

There is a big elephant in the room: what about the weirdos who received degrees in the past? They are a huge liability to the current school. The other related elephant is some past dealings with donors. I recall Kristine who had put up $100,000 or some huge amount, only to receive a bunch of IOUs. This story may have some inaccuracies or things I don't really know, but these are problems. Loot at GW as a political canidate. What are the liabilities? There is a checkered past, but there may be something valuable there.

I stand by my opinion. I see nothing wrong in st...

2011-02-15T12:16:05.465-08:00

I stand by my opinion.

I see nothing wrong in stating what I know. If Ms. Smailes was inarticulate enough not to show her depth of knowledge of symbolism to a true doctoral candidate and scholar in that field, then I wonder what exactly Schulties was thinking, if indeed he was responsible for her degree. GW can't have it both ways. If they want to be outside the norm and follow their own rules, that's fine by me. If they want to award doctoral degrees and say they're equivalent to those awarded at an accredited university, then they need to use the same standards, which I can definitely say they don't. A professor of symbolism would have many times more knowledge about symbolism than Ms. Smailes does. That I know for a fact. Her knowledge of the topic is based on a limited amount of resources, and she was adamantly against going beyond those resources into literature that she found questionable, but is necessary reading for those working on a true doctoral degree. Ask her yourself, since you know her so intimately. She will not deny any of this.

Whether I choose to be anonymous or not is my decision. Either way, I see no reason why I can't comment on the topic at hand.

Thanks RC, but to my knowledge that is exactly wha...

2011-02-15T08:30:12.086-08:00

Thanks RC, but to my knowledge that is exactly what GW does. I can’t vouch for how they are doing it this year, but a few years ago when a buddy of mine graduated at GW, he had 2 SUU professors and 1 professor from BYU that came and sat on his graduation committee, scrutinized his thesis and participated in his multiple grueling oral examinations. Unless they’ve changed their system, I think they’re still doing that.

Is there someone that wants to verify that? I’m sure if someone wanted more details about that, a quick phone call to the school would confirm their current grad committee policies. They are not a walk in the park, I can tell you that much. The GW students that I know, want to be held to a higher standard. Everyone I know that attended GW after earning an undergrad degree elsewhere (including Dr. Schulthies himself) have all agreed that academics at GW are comparatively more challenging. That has been my experience also.

This fallacious presumption that GW just loosely hands out degrees is in no way an accurate picture of things as they really are. It makes a good story, no doubt, but it just isn’t true.